The Empathy Test

topic posted Mon, March 24, 2008 - 10:57 AM by  JW
Do you ever find yourself telling people about bad experiences to see how they will react? I do that habitually with potential or actual friends (though I'm not sure I have any of those now). It has more to do with Enneagram type probably, but reacting badly to a lack of empathy is relevant here. Many, or most, of my fallings-out with people have involved their not being empathic toward me. It usually comes as a shock. This observation I give to the world for comment.
posted by:
JW
offline JW
Los Angeles
  • Re: The Empathy Test

    Mon, March 24, 2008 - 11:27 AM
    I cant seem to keep friends myself and I would agree that most of my falling outs is lack of empathy , appreciating who I am, lack of respect for my intelligence and my compassion .. I have a lot of male friends with big egos and when I challenge them to deep conversations they tend to brush me off..... so I brush them off for good after many attempts and left with a feeling of not being accepted for who I am.. I see this as a repetiton of my miscommunication with my father who was and is a totalitarian.
    with the women in my life I often found that it was my own inability to let them in that caused the fall out along with again them not accepting who I am and trying to change me but I have a few good female friends in my life now. The men ,although they make up the majority of my frienships,tend to come and go and I have the most trouble with on a deeper level.
  • Re: The Empathy Test

    Mon, March 24, 2008 - 12:30 PM
    I can relate. At first, I try to hold everything in so as not to "bother" people with my problems. Then it builds...then I withdraw from close friends and become hermit like, just hoping that someone will notice, give a shit and talk to me about whatever is going on. Eventually someone will bite and then I spill it all on them...detail by detail...drama by drama...tears...it's really pretty ridiculous. If all goes well, the other person empathizes, then coaches me to leave behind the drama and come up with something constructive to solve the issue...if all doesn't go well, they react coldly or not at all. I feel completely invalidated and unheard and pretty much decide that person needs to be away from me permanently!
  • Re: The Empathy Test

    Mon, March 24, 2008 - 2:40 PM
    Your post seems to suggest that your primary purpose for having friends is so they can support you emotionally. This reminds me of a question that I've been struggling with lately. Which is: "Why have friends?" I've always been a very independent person and have never had many close friends. Lately I've felt a strong desire to make new friends and form a close bond with them. But who do I want to be friends with? What purposed should they serve in my life? What purpose should I have in there's? Should I make friends with people who can teach me new things or that are just fun to be with? Should I make friends with people who share my views, or with people who hold different views?
    • Re: The Empathy Test

      Tue, March 25, 2008 - 7:33 AM
      It sounds like you are being a little deliberate about whom you choose, which isn't necessarily a bad thing since we often adopt mannerisms and behaviors of our friends...but you really hit it on the head when you said you felt a strong desire to form close bonds with friends...that would probably mean people who "get you" and you "get them". Sometimes that happens with people very like you and sometimes not, at least in my experience. Those people who I would label "friend" are quite diverse in just about every way, but the thing they have in common is that I really get who they are and support their full self expression and they provide the same for me. So, I say just keep your eyes and heart open. It's really great that you've embarked on this enquiry...it's caused me to stop and ponder as well. Thanks!
      • Re: The Empathy Test

        Tue, March 25, 2008 - 9:00 AM
        You make a very good point which clears up my questions about who I would seek to be friends with. If what I'm looking for is to form connections, that could really come from any type of person. So being open to the whole diversity of people, without trying to seek out specific traits is the best method. Which just seems to make the most sense anyway.

        "getting you" and "getting them" kinda brings it back to the original empathy test question. If someone is able to have empathy for you and you're able to have empathy for them then there's the foundation for a good connection. Ultimately it's our own ability for empathy that could be key to how strong of a connection we are able to form with others. Which is especially nice since INFP's have a strong natural ability for empathy.
    • JW
      JW
      offline 0

      Re: The Empathy Test

      Wed, March 26, 2008 - 8:42 AM
      Probably was that my original primary purpose, back when I developed the habit of telling sad stories. I've matured since then (I hope) and now would rank shared interests and views and having fun ahead of being supported. Maybe I'd also rank exposure to new intellectual stuff before support. Sometimes I even get into a mode where I'm too eager to give support while not seeking it myself. Bad experiences have made me afraid of opening up, but then bottling things up and dumping them on people doesn't get good reactions. I want to be using my empathy test early on, honestly. Too many of the people who share some private views of mine, agreement on which close friendship probably depends, are low in general empathy. Ever notice that, even if they are Feelers, very intelligent people can be very unempathetic in some areas?
      • pj
        pj
        offline 3

        Re: The Empathy Test

        Thu, March 27, 2008 - 3:03 PM
        Quote JW: "Ever notice that, even if they are Feelers, very intelligent people can be very unempathetic in some areas? "

        Yes, yes, yes!

        Empathy, kindness and compassion are qualities I rate highly....I love this world and her nature and people, very much, and it blows me away the lack of empathy or kindness or compassion some folk show, think, talk...(for fellow humans, the environment...nature etc).

        So then I try to understand where they are coming from that they don't feel for stuff?

        I access a forum on property investing for information, etc...some of the folk (only some), are quick to judge non property investors, umm, it kind of gets into the haves and have nots discussions.. "som" of these successful and financially independent people are very generalised in their thoughts for the not so wealthy....it took me a lot of time and research and objecting to their gross generalisations and put downs, to try and understand where they are coming from...it involves very many reasons and some I still don't understand!

        For many of those, so called intelligent and wealthy folk, empathy is seen as a weakness! The soft touches, they are (some of them!) quite derogatory in their comments...

        A few of the males, especially see empathy as a feminised trait! (Yes I am serious, they see empathy as weakness or affront to their masculinity). So that goes down another path that I try to understand why that is so offensive to them...

        Life is never dull, people are very interesting, their perceptions are always interesting!

        My closest friens whom I share a lot of time and thoughts with, have strong empathetic tendencies and understanding, I love them for their qualities that I hold dearly, it really rates highly for me; empathy-it doesn't mean I am a walkover, I don't think I should ever have to defend the qualities I possess (in strong amounts), I believe it has always been a part of me from whenver I can remember as a small child, but perhaps I have learnt to apply it more wisely.....and constructively....

        PJ

        For some, empathy needs to be taught, early as possible eg childhood...
        • Re: The Empathy Test

          Thu, March 27, 2008 - 4:05 PM
          I wonder whether there's an expectation implied here that others should be like you? That rather than honoring others' gifts and what they have to offer, there's an assumption they should be capable of the enormous empathy you are able to offer?

          Or does the resentment burble up only after they don't value your gifts first?

          Could you please set me straight?

          Thanks!
          • pj
            pj
            offline 3

            Re: The Empathy Test

            Thu, March 27, 2008 - 6:33 PM
            (Only speaking for myself):

            I think I do, (and have had), the expectation others show empathy...I am still trying to understand why empathy does not come readily to every person...that in itself shows a lack of empathy by me? for them!

            It is a powerful contradiction within me, empathy and kindness are right up there with breathing in and out. For me they are limitless. Empathy/compassion/kindness.. for me isn't a gift it's a way of life.

            The empathy and acts of kindness shown to me through my life are also another inspiration to do in kind..

            I have been derided and ridiculed for my expression (and acts) of kindness and empathy, called weak ....that has been water off the ducks back...this is how I feel about it whatever some folk may read into it, and that for me is most important, following my heart:

            "Tenderness and kindness are not signs of weakness and despair, but manifestations of strength and resolution"...(Kahlil Gibran)

            ...and

            "Only your compassion and your loving kindness are invincible, and without limit."
            (Thich Nhat Hanh)

            I feel I am able to to be appreciative of others and their personalities and what they offer, I am learning to accept the contrasts of life and people, I make great effort to just accept stuff for what it is, and that does actually get easier..but for me my empathy, compassion is very deep, as is optimism, the ability to feel the depths but reach for the light and appreciate the now..

            The qualities I have taught my children have been these; empathy, compassion, optimism, appreciation, (develop) creativeness, sincerity, responsibility, respect, (develop) strength, unconditional love...the easiest lessons to share in the world.

            However I need to review my expectation of others in the world..it's just empathy is a wonderful base to view the rest of the world from. :)
            • Re: The Empathy Test

              Thu, March 27, 2008 - 11:13 PM
              "Tenderness and kindness are not signs of weakness and despair, but manifestations of strength and resolution"...(Kahlil Gibran)

              this is beautiful..
              thanks for posting it.
              jess
              • Re: The Empathy Test

                Fri, March 28, 2008 - 3:37 PM
                Kinship

                Why be kind?
                Why model humane expectations
                of the reasoned mind?
                Theories of evolution say
                strategies of the Golden Rule,
                like birds in migration, fish in school,
                move us all forward,
                increase the common pie.
                All well fed, well loved,
                well and whole.
                Why would we not embrace
                that model?
                Why favor divisive cries of
                anger, bitter tears fed
                by fears unfairly explored?
                Why be kind in the face of
                derisive mocking?
                Fear's not unfounded to we
                bearing wounds of sharp stones
                flung in punishment as gossips
                proclaim our sins.
                Can we find and flow together,
                name ourselves as kin:
                we who are kind?

                (c) March 23, 2008 Laurie Corzett/libramoon

                emergingvisions.blogspot.com
            • JW
              JW
              offline 0

              Re: The Empathy Test

              Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:44 AM
              I was ready to let this topic go. Then I found that, as I had suspected, empathy probably is a requirement for friendship (by INFP definition, some closeness), regardless of type.
              We Help Friends Due To Empathy...
              www.sciencedaily.com/release...4214.htm

              Also, I think that empathy itself has no value. For example, I don't want a "friend" whose empathy never will be expressed in more than words.
        • Re: The Empathy Test

          Thu, April 10, 2008 - 6:55 PM
          you know I related very strongly to this post because where I live there are a great many very educated males who are very low on empathy. Arrogance is also a common trait in a some of these men. Not so much that they put down me, but they were very arrogant towards people around them, especially poor or the homeless. You know abusive to wait staff, ridiculing people who worked in menial jobs etc. And yet, I have met some very successful men who were CEOs of their own company who were very kind and very wonderful people who have done so many great things.

          But still it seemed that there was this disproportionate number of highly educated men who were really low on empathy. I couldn't figure out why education and arrogance as well as low empathy would seem to go so hand in hand. I mean coming out of my background education was seen as the great path to enlightenment (e.g., Voltaire)

          I had to sit with this for quite some time to try to understand it. It was relevant because during this time I kept attracting this type and it was very frustrating. I'd keep getting dates with very successful intelligent arrogant men and it was frustrating. Eight years of looking for a partner in this milieu so close to silicon valley. The Bay Area has the most number of PhDs per capita. I was up against a great deal.

          Eventually my brother, who probably knows me the best of any of my friends, said to me: "Look for a man with a lot of heart. Avoid the really intelligent men, because they aren't going to have much heart." He even began to suggest professions. Carpenter, for instance.

          At first I couldn't see this. I thought it didn't make sense. I was brought up to value intelligence (more so than even financial success) as ideal in a mate. My father was a scientist and it was expected that I would go to college and there I would find a very bright man. And I kept focusing on brainy men because that is what I was taught.

          Eventually I began to reorient myself to looking for a different kind of man, the kind my brother spoke of. But I needed some kind of compass with which to guide me to that man. Eventually I discovered it. Non-empathic, arrogant men don't relate well to children, animals or wait staff. I have never seen it. Every arrogant/unempathic man is either indifferent to children/pets/wait staff or if they want them it's because they serve some utilitarian purpose. They might become fathers and providers, but they rarely make great fathers or pet owners. At worst those less powerful are treated cruelly, at best they are tolerated or are considered utilitarian extensions of their own successes. (E.g., my child reflects me through his scholarly successes, or he is going to take over the family business when he is older etc.)

          I've never read why some grow up to be arrogant/unempathic. I have some ideas, but I don't think they are all that well-developed. Mostly its about the way education is set up in this country. There is a huge emphasis on being right in the earlier grades and I think some men who have the answers to all the questions get this idea about themselves that they are infallible because often they are right--when it comes to facts--and a great deal of early education is unfortunately memorizing and spewing back facts. And so they apply this kind of logic to their personal lives as well and they go around with the idea that they have all the answers because they are so successful at having had the answers in the past. And so they become hypercritical of anyone who is different, who is the opposite, who isn't successful.

          But because we all have shadow selves--those unowned parts of self--that get shoved under I feel that in many cases these unempathic characters have suppressed their empathic selves because they are seen as weak, just as you have stated. I know of someone who is around married couples of this sort and he told me that his boss said that these couples often break up when the kids are grown because the women can't take it any more. They just can't take the cold arrogance of this kind of mate. As soon as those kids are teenagers these wives are gone, even though it often means lower status and loss of a lifestyle.



          • rax
            rax
            offline 7

            Re: The Empathy Test

            Thu, April 10, 2008 - 10:26 PM
            > Avoid the really intelligent men, because they aren't going to have much heart.

            I beg your pardon!
            I have an IQ of 132, and a heart the size of my...nevermind.

            If you're looking for empathy in an INTP (which most of the silicon valley Phd types are), then you'll have to wait till they're over 40 and have passed that "aha" moment when they finally begin to understand emotions.

            Men who adore children, animals (and wait-staff?) are rare.
            They're a good choice if you're planning to settle down, have kids, pets and wait-staff.

            But will they intellectually stimulate you when you're 70? I think not!

            :-)
            (just kidding. pay no heed)
            • JW
              JW
              offline 0

              Re: The Empathy Test

              Fri, April 11, 2008 - 8:55 AM
              Don't chicken out at the end - you're right. And so is she, about highly intelligent men in general, not just INTPs, but NTJs and STJs. Even a particularly bright INFP guy, like me, hehehe, isn't going to have much empathy for stupid or - since we're meaning-seekers - purposeless behavior. I think expecting men to have the same kind of empathy as women stereotypically do is self-defeating.
            • Re: The Empathy Test

              Wed, April 30, 2008 - 7:41 PM
              thats great RAX..
              ill tak e one order of the IQ and the big heart and other to thing match.....heehee!

              I thought INFP men were emapthetic regardless to IQ???????//?
              • rax
                rax
                offline 7

                Re: The Empathy Test

                Wed, April 30, 2008 - 9:15 PM
                > I thought INFP men were emapthetic regardless to IQ?

                I was talking about INTP men, the pure-geeks who don't comprehend emotion, dont want to talk about feelings and dont understand how to react to their partner's emotions.
  • rax
    rax
    offline 7

    Re: The Empathy Test

    Tue, April 1, 2008 - 10:51 AM
    I generally dont expect empathy from friends, so i don't test them on it.
    But, I definitely test my significant other for empathy, or atleast an understanding of me.

    As far as "testing" goes, everybody gets tested for everything all the time. How people react to situations is always an indicator of their character and I'm pretty observant about these things.

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